John's Blog - Latest Comments in Mozilla, Firefox & Data

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

Gino — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:49:15 -0000

now another firefox will come.. .(excited)

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

ryanchow — Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:37:22 -0000

There has been talks about Mozilla privately collecting users' data and surfing patterns for research purposes. I am not too concerned about this matter, however it is good that you have highlighted these few points and clarified them.

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

prem123 — Tue, 09 Dec 2008 03:23:22 -0000

Collecting user data even on regional basis & not on the individual basis is against the privacy.

I think they have to relook into there plan

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

Abe patch management software — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 17:16:17 -0000

Well I am using firefox and I like it very much

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

Glen Grossmann — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 01:39:32 -0000

John I hope you are readers can help me. When I upgraded firefox all of my bookmarks dissapared . I cannot use there e-mail system. Would you know their phone #, or address?

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

Martin — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 22:09:41 -0000

It's quite simple really. I'll stop using Firefox, whether or not the system is opt-in or out. A shame as it's better than the others - including Opera and Safari, and I've been using it for years.

I've long been a supporter of privacy, and for that reason have stayed away from Gmail et al. I've nothing to hide, but it's the principle that counts. The recent advent of Phorm and others give concern for the future and I never thought that I would be reading about Firefox in a similar vein. Different, but similar. (And yes I do realise that there is actually no privacy on the web, and that at any point in time data can be read.) But the recent trends are different. They are wholesale scanning of data (MY data) to gain commercial advantage or income. When I put a letter in the snail mail, it is not read (actually illegal apart from pretty boring anyway), so why when I use electronic mail or use the web, does every man and his dog seem to think my data is suddenly become theirs to abuse?

I do not browse the web to be targeted with ads or have my profile collected, no more than when I drive my car does Toyota find out where I have driven.

The purpose of the browser is to facilitate MY quest for information (both work and home related) and to deliver that information to my screen. In the days gone past. I would have used the printed version of yellow pages or gone to the local library, or stuck to a very limited source of known data (yep, I'm well past 50!). Fortunately those days have long gone and the internet is now a valuable tool. Please don't abuse it!

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

Mark — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 07:31:11 -0000

Thanks John for your honesty ;-)

1. There is no secret data project.
-you say thats the data project is official know and it is running!

2. There is no secret plan to collect user data.
-you allready collect user data, the plan isn't secret anymore!

3. We are not already secretly collecting data.
-not you John, we understand that, google do this! we understand! ... not anymore secretly!
-also you like to do this not secretly anymore at person, we understand the pressure is hard to carry!

4. Yes, we are trying to figure out how to accumulate and open better data about how people use the
web and their browsers; like everything Mozilla does, that starts with discussion like this, and we expect people to have many, many opinions.

-John, it's not a question anymore of discussion or if you expect people to have many opinions! You know and you try to hurt peoples privacy. John, you and Google will be successfull with this, only by users who did not read this consciously, because you did not making it public on the mozilla-pages. You are not interested in a real discussion. You are only figure out, how strong the resisted part of conscious users is! By the way, to realise these functions with the title "anti-pishing" and "anti-malware" is inexcusable and also undiscussable!

John, you are getting better in this, then microsoft, did you know that? But you also know, your firm is only a dummy and your commercial interests are secure behind the foundation. Taxfree!

But maybe in future more people understand the title of your blog: "...stream of consciousness" !!!

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

Anonymous Guest — Fri, 30 May 2008 17:51:07 -0000

John,

On exactly which release did Firefox versions start
sending out unauthorized UDP and TCP packets to
the Internet? I refer specifically to unauthorized
outgoing DNS requests on port 53 and also to
surreptitious outgoing TCP-SYN connection-attempts to distant Mozilla servers on
port 80.

I must admit it does seem rather clever, to have all
Firefox browsers designed to send unauthorized outgoing packets to the Internet when they are launched. Perhaps this is now or will oneday become some form of regular Firefox "heartbeat".

Of course it is even more clever to send out
user-unauthorized TCP-SYN packets to Mozilla
servers (pseudo-randomly) on occasions when users
click a mouse-button or press enter, the resulting
connections to Mozilla's servers would have received state along with the connections that
users actually did seek to make. A very clever
mechanism to effectively defeat stateful firewalls.

Between Netfilter and PF I believe i've been able to
filter and drop all of the DNS packets and at least
some of the TCP-SYN packets.

I've noted the packets seeking to travel via ports 53
and 80, have I somehow missed any packets on port
443, or will you make use of this port too only in
future releases?

When configured not to use DNS, Firefox should
not be sending DNS packets out. When not
configured to initiate TCP connections with
distant Mozilla servers, Firefox should not be
doing so surreptitiously, without a user's permission.

Sir, your packets betray you.

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

cfraz — Tue, 27 May 2008 14:42:52 -0000

Hey John, I know of some extremely valuable internet usage data related to browsing habits that has never been available until now!

And I'll share it freely with you. No, wait. You shared it with me. Wha...??

Yea. The data appears on this page in the comments above this one. And the clear, unrefutable conclusion of that data is that an overwhelming proportion of responders do not want FireFox to collect usage data in any form.

My question is what are you going to do with *this* data. If it's something different than backing off from your position, then I have to say I would never trust your assurances that data you intend to collect would be used in the best interests of FireFox users.

Look, your arguments just don't make sense. You claim this is not about economics, but about "leveling the playing field." What does that even mean? The playing field is not level because +90% of computers come with a default browser other than FireFox. The playing field will not be level while that continues, and collecting FireFox browsing usage data will not change that.

How will dealing with the inevitable fork to a non-tracking version of FireFox make FireFox community stronger?

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

dead paul — Tue, 27 May 2008 07:00:21 -0000

Such a sucky approach with all that sickening management speak about texture and nuance in an effort to broach as
comfortably as possible a subject reviled among the internets more aware users as FF owners are. Go ahead and implement this rubbish and watch FF go down the drain.

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

Nick Fortune — Tue, 27 May 2008 04:24:13 -0000

Out of curiosity, is this the sort of open discussion where attention is paid to what the userbase says, with policy being adjusted according? Or is this one of those discussions where the decision has already been made, and the only question is how to spin the announcement to lose the fewest users?

I think the reaction here is clear an unambiguous, don't you? So now we get to see where mozilla corp's priorities lie; with the users, or with its corporate partners.

One thing you can be sure of: your users will vote with their feet.

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

W^L+ — Mon, 26 May 2008 22:21:42 -0000

John, what in the world are you thinking? This goes against everything that we know about Mozilla. What's next? "Genuine Advantage" snoopware to find out what other software we have installed?

Seriously, John, even thinking about this is a major mistake. About the only think I can see coming out of this is getting your products banned from any companies' networks and losing the support / usage / advocacy of FOSS enthusiasts everywhere.

Any reporting should be STRICTLY voluntary, and turned off by default. Maybe it should even be a separate download. Users should easily be able to turn it off at any time. I think the best thing you could do is to swear off data collection permanently, and begin to market your products as "on your side, not the corporations' side". Combine that with highlighting the ways in which competitors funnel user data to marketers, and you will see an uptick in usage.

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

ChefBork — Mon, 26 May 2008 18:28:19 -0000

John, I am glad that there are no secret projects or plans to collect user data. I hope it stays that way, as it is my belief that data collection is an invasion of privacy. One should only give up that privacy at their own bequest -- which I would never do -- and not as an automatic feature of an application being used.

"...there remain worlds of information about how people use the web that are locked up and not currently shared.

So we asked ourselves what we can do to help unlock some of this latent potential...

...Beyond that, we’re thinking about it and talking about it, but haven’t staffed it very much — we don’t even have a name for the project yet. What we do know is that data is important, and that there’s a ton of potential for everyone...."

Potential for whom? I don't see any possible benefit to myself -- the user -- that is worth the loss of my privacy. The reason this data is important is because it is private data collected at the server side and thus a scarce resource. This is why it's important to businesses -- but not people in general.

" ...and started thinking about whether there’s a project we can do at Mozilla that does a few things:

1. Collects & shares data in a way that embodies the user control & privacy options which are at Mozilla’s core.
2. Enables everyone — from individual researchers and entrepreneurs (both the social and capitalist types) to the largest organizations in the world — to take usage data, mix it up, mash it up, derive insight, and hopefully share some of that insight with others.
3. Helps move the conversation around data collection and web usage forward, to help consumers make more informed decisions.

It seems obvious to us that there’s lots to be done here, and lots that we can do, if we can work with our broad community to figure it out."

Here's a thought -- try not following the herd! Don't be a lemming!

Why does a browser need to spy on its users' surfing habits to determine how to make the browser application itself better? Oh, wait -- you don't explicitly state that this is for what Mozilla would be collecting that data.

"We’ve had most of the substance of these conversations in the open, like most everything we do, and we want to have more. Key to us doing anything is having even more conversations like this in public, and figuring out a set of core principles that go beyond just the level of opting-in."

I was very glad to read this. I'm involved in this conversation, and I'm spending my precious time giving you my feed-back. I wouldn't do so if it (my privacy) wasn't important to me.

"So I’m glad that Mike wrote about it & sees some of the promise here. It’s early days, but it seems to me at least that opening up all sorts of data — from web usage to the social graph & beyond — is going to be the topic of conversation for a long time to come."

It will be a topic of conversation only as long as Mozilla continues down the path of modifying their applications (I haven't forgot that Mozilla supports Thunderbird and other applications beyond Firefox) to collect and store users' surfing and usage habits. And then "phoning home" with that data. The conversation will end with sighs of relief and much applause as soon as you announce that the applications WILL NOT and NEVER WILL be modified to include this functionality.

There are better ways to collect information to make the applications better, if that's what Mozilla really wants -- one is user surveys. Those users that care about improving the applications will sign up for the surveys and give their feedback. Those that don't won't, just as those that don't want to bother with reporting bugs don't do so. Each user has the Freedom to choose. Doesn't Mozilla already use surveys and other forms of user feedback to determine what's important to their users? If so, then why do they want to collect this data all the time from within the applications?

I guess Mozilla could create plug-ins to 'watch' users to gain better understanding of their habits. But such plug-ins shouldn't be (and wouldn't need to be) part of the core applications themselves. Users that wanted to participate could manually download and install such plug-ins and allow them to observe their usage patterns and habits. Those users could also manually uninstall them when they decided they didn't want to continue to participate. What better form of opt-in could you want? What gives the user more Freedom and more choice?

Wait -- didn't I read in the comments that such a plug-in already existed? Then why is this conversation taking place? Oh, that's right --

"...2. Enables everyone — from individual researchers and entrepreneurs (both the social and capitalist types) to the largest organizations in the world — to take usage data, mix it up, mash it up, derive insight, and hopefully share some of that insight with others."

It doesn't sound like you want Mozilla to collect data to improve the applications, but to make such data available to others. This is the same thing that Phorm and other programs do. Do you want to make Mozilla an also-ran?

"...1. Collects & shares data in a way that embodies the user control & privacy options which are at Mozilla’s core."

I never realized that spying on users was at Mozilla's core. Silly me, I thought one of Mozilla's core precepts was privacy and user control. Collecting data on such application usage habits (browsing, email, RSS feeds, etc.) has only one thing to do with my privacy -- invading it.

I've read all of the other feedback comments. I found almost all of them to be negative about including data collection in Mozilla applications and to echo my own beliefs. Many of the most negative comments equated modifying Mozilla applications to collect private data to making them into Spyware. It made me wonder what kind of feedback Mozilla was getting on their user and community pages. I further note that the information being presented in this form of feedback is nothing that any automatic data collection feature could record.

I did find some comments upon which I'd like to remark.

Tom 05.14.08 / 8am

"Thanks for the answer John. You have to understand privacy is a big topic in Germany ( and it should be everywhere )..."

Privacy is a big deal in the US, too; at least for many of us. I'm sure it's as important in the rest of the world, but with differing levels of discussion and action. It's an ongoing fight that seems to remain an uphill battle, but it is happening. Every time another incident where private data is loosed upon the "wild wild web" due to bad procedures or sheer human incompetence, those of us that are for the strictest of privacy laws and procedures are proven right in our beliefs and the warnings that we voice. We are not just voices in the wilderness crying "Wolf!". The tide is turning, but it hasn't yet started to show.

Ian McKellar 05.14.08 / 8am

"This is a really exciting opportunity to diversify Mozilla’s funding sources. This kind of aggregate browsing data is valuable to a far wider set of organizations than Mozilla can make search advertising affiliate deals with.

Right now Mozilla is only minimally monetizing Firefox users - the potential to non-intrusively generate a little more revenue and then put that to use helping the Open Web is great news."

W-W-What?!!! I thought the Mozilla Foundation was a non-profit organization -- what need does a non-profit have to "diversify funding resources" or "monetize users"?
If Mozilla needs money, then they should ask the community to step up and help out. I agree with one of the comments that raised the question that maybe the Foundation's executives are being paid too much, if they need to resort to "monetizing users" to preserve funding. There is no need to collect private data about its users and sell it to raise funds. I agree with the comment that stated that "we are not livestock".

I also agree 100% with the comments made by Ben Bucksch . Unfortunately, your replies to his comments continue to muddy the issue. You speak about collecting data to "level the playing field" and that "this isn’t economics driving it". Yet, again, how does collecting and storing private data about users' application usage and browsing habits improve the applications and "level the playing field"?

The fact that you state

"the web today collects *much* data about people in ways that aren’t helpful at all"

in one of your replies shows, to me, that you may be out of touch with what users want. The web today collects too much data about people and that invasion of privacy isn't helpful at all.

I agree with Ben when he says:

"...the web is collecting *too* much data. What we need are tools to *reduce* that, to avoid being profiled and collected. Insofar I agree that we need discussion, just in the other direction :)"

I wholeheartedly disagree with you, John, when you reply:

"...Anyway, it seems to me that “collect everything!” and “collect nothing!” are both straw men proposals, and we need to get a more nuanced conversation going..."

Collect nothing is where I want to be. A "more nuanced conversation" isn't where I'd like the conversation to go. As I and others have stated, if people want to opt-in to a 'watcher' program by downloading and installing a plug-in -- that's their choice. It's would never be mine, but I would allow others that Freedom. Don't ask me to give up my Freedom or choice by embedding that functionality within the applications themselves. I agree with others that the risk is too great that such an opt-in program could silently morph into an opt-out program without notice -- or could be silently modified by some malicious person or applet. It;s not a ris

In summation: let each user have the Freedom to choose without endangering those who do not wish to participate. Don't modify the Mozilla applications to collect or upload any data about users' application usage, browsing habits, use of RSS feeds, etc. If users want to answer surveys, let them. If users want participate in a program to collect this data, let them. They can do so through the most favorable opt-in methodology -- a plug-in that they would need to manually download and install, and that would completely remove itself when uninstalled. As others have stated, to do otherwise will damage the trust that the Mozilla Foundation has earned in the last decade, and trust, once lost, is not easily regained.

John, I'm glad you asked for my feedback. I hope you're not too disappointed.

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

Ian — Mon, 26 May 2008 18:16:27 -0000

I've read all these comments from people who say they appreciate what John is saying. Personally i can't figure out what John is saying at all because he is using obfuscated made up management-speak. That alone makes me distrust him. I will watch Mozilla a lot more carefully from now on. that this proposal could be generated at all is very disturbing to me.

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

GuyllFyre — Mon, 26 May 2008 08:39:35 -0000

Why do more research? Sing along boys and girls, we all know what browsers want...

"The internet is for porn."
"The internet is for porn."
"So grab your dick and double click."
"The internet is for porn."

This is why they don't want their browser history shown, you'll see how big of perverts we really are. Like the South Park recently where there was "no internet." Once you've seen Internet porn, there's no going back to Playboy or Penthouse.

If you really want to make money, just set up a decent XXX site. Since it's inception, the only industry that has consistently made money on the internet is;

PORN!

-S

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

Jibbidy B — Mon, 26 May 2008 08:26:04 -0000

Hmmm, all this whining about privacy and yet I bet you all use Google to search.

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

アメリカ留学 — Mon, 26 May 2008 05:31:14 -0000

Hi! I am a Japanese. Though I looked for English study in various ways, I commented because contents were interesting. I was able to enjoy it very much. In addition, I come to look. Please keep it for us. Thank you!

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

SiverWave — Sun, 25 May 2008 12:25:41 -0000

Hi John - I have looked at a lot of what you have to say.

"Enables everyone — from individual researchers and entrepreneurs (both the social and capitalist types) to the largest organizations in the world — to take usage data, mix it up, mash it up, derive insight, and hopefully share some of that insight with others."

"It’s early days, but it seems to me at least that opening up all sorts of data — from web usage to the social graph & beyond — is going to be the topic of conversation for a long time to come."

I am sorry to say that you have lost my trust.

Not the Firefox team just you.

I think you need to do the honorable thing and resign.

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

Teddy — Sun, 25 May 2008 12:16:52 -0000

John,

With all due respect, despite the perceived advantages of such data collection, this is a recipe for user distrust, and software choice revolt against Mozilla.

IMHO, if you should decide to pursue this, such code should be part of a plugin system, and not part of the main Mozilla code. This should be the opt-in based system.

"Rudiger, Tom, tekonaut, nobody plans to make this spyware, I tried to make it clear that we’d only do this by figuring out a way to be very very opt-in, the data would be open to everyone, and not personal in any way. That’s why we’re talking about it in the very early stages as we explore the space.

I hear your concerns; take them very seriously. Feedback is what we’re after."

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

SilverWave — Sun, 25 May 2008 10:55:19 -0000

Hi John I came here after defending you and the FF team in the BadPhorm forums.
---
"First off lets remember this is the Firefox guys - they have earned a lot of trust.
I would need to be convinced that this was phorn like.
To recap - the firefox team have my trust - they have earned it. "Trust but verify " is still a good idea though :) "
---
I have been a longtime user and evangelist for FF and my default mode is to trust you.

I came here to verify, below is my report to BadPhorm:
---
Did some checking... I would like to say "Story was complete *********", as the thereg didn't have a link so you could verify what the person quoted *actually* said, see the real story here:
http://john.jubjubs.net/2008/05/13/mozilla-fire...

But reading through what he said and his replies to comments, it looks like a cockup not conspiracy.
I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt as to *his* initial motivation. It looked to him as a tool to help build a better browser - like crash reporting...

BUT

I think he has [messed] up big style.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I don't think there is a chance of this now being implemented, given the huge storm of protests it has generated.

TBH I don't think there was a chance that this would have made it to code in any case - none of the FF devs would have stood for this.

I hope John just stops digging.

" 1. Collects & shares data in a way that embodies the user control & privacy options which are at Mozilla’s core.
2. Enables everyone — from individual researchers and entrepreneurs (both the social and capitalist types) to the largest organizations in the world — to take usage data, mix it up, mash it up, derive insight, and hopefully share some of that insight with others.
3. Helps move the conversation around data collection and web usage forward, to help consumers make more informed decisions."

... sounds way to much like phorm's marketing bs.

Best quote from the comments is from Klaus Malorny:

"The only way to prevent misuse of data is not to create the data in the first place. Opt-in is no safeguard for the uneducated people, who deserve privacy in the same way as experts."
---

http://www.badphorm.co.uk
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ispphorm/

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

Steviant — Fri, 23 May 2008 19:53:34 -0000

Don't let a few small-minded zealots who can't envisage an "off button" for this feature spoil what is an opportunity to create an open base of information regarding web browsing habits.

No other project is in a position to be able distribute and act as a clearing house for studies on such data, as the commercial entities involved in their creation would not allow it on the grounds of sensitivity.

I think it's naive to assume that closed-source projects like Safari and Internet Explorer are not already secretly gathering the kind of metrics being discussed.

Openly sharing the information gathered in this way would go some way towards ensuring that outside entities have no opportunity to receive non-anonymous information, while the open-source nature of Firefox would make it more difficult to secretly gather personal information since the code can be examined by anyone.

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

David — Wed, 21 May 2008 14:29:44 -0000

This is clearly no way to go and I want no part, already I am looking at alternative browsers.

If they say they are not collecting this or that, opt in or opt out, just how can we believe them with open source.. what else are they doing behind out back?

From this day on FF has become a security risk, after this can we really take what they ever say at face value, just what add ons are they adding on without our knowledge?

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

BPC — Wed, 21 May 2008 10:54:30 -0000

I also have been a user of firefox since it was Mozilla. I must agree with the commenters who argue that it is an issue of trust. To even consider collecting browsing and/or usage habits has greatly undermined my trust in Mozilla. I never install the crash tracking as it is. wtf would I want it if I'm not using a beta?

I am now somewhat less keen to look at FF3 lest I find myself having to uninstall it later due to the inclusion of spyware. opt-out / opt-in makes no difference. Just the mindset of a company that would include this stuff in the code is enough to send me running.

Great pity since there isn't really anything else at present. If you go ahead with this in any form other than a plugin I have to install separately then I'll be hoping for a code fork to save me from Opera or IE. (IE has many failings but I'm pretty sure it doesn't profile me...yet).

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

Oilthieves — Wed, 21 May 2008 06:23:16 -0000

Things to consider
1. Treachery & the drought of goodwill & trust
2. It's not wise to tease the tiger - The french revolution
3. Your loss - will be my gain.
4. The Tower of Babel: 6IM & AIC & DASSOM
5. For every action - there is an equal and opposite reaction

Re: Mozilla, Firefox & Data

Alex C — Wed, 21 May 2008 03:59:02 -0000

*Sigh*

Ok, time to leave Firefox behind, shame, when I read that this has been removed I will consider coming back.

Thanks at least for telling us this is happening so I have been able to make my choice, appreciate you being upfront about it.